Monday, 29 December 2008

Astrology: Force or Farce?

Taking a slight detour from my 'quest' today, although still relevant.

Astrology, an idea that exists in billions of people's lives today surrounds us and bombards our consciousness on a daily basis. People trust in astrological predictions. That is the bottom line. There are varying degrees of 'trust', but I believe that even someone who only treats the predictions as fickle still values some of the input.

What is astrology? It is the idea that the paths and positions of certain celestial bodies including the planets in our solar system and the stars far beyond, have some influence on our lives. They affect our luck (What???), affect our mood and seem to give answers to the unexplainable in the form of Lady Destiny.

Let's explore this from two different perspectives:
1)Science: Scientifically, astrology is a totally moot point. What I mean by this is that astrology has NO, ZERO, NADA, ZILCH scientific backing. It is, for lack of a better term, bollocks. Why? essentially, things in space are far away....really far away. Light travels fast...that is an understatement. To put it in perspective, the light that reaches your eyes from the sun takes 8 minutes to reach us. Light travels at roughly 300,000 kilometres a SECOND! So, 300,000 multiplied by 60(for the seconds in a minute) multiplied by 8. That's how far the sun is, and the sun is considered 'close' to us. When you see the sun, you are seeing it as it was 8 minutes ago. it is impossible to see the sun as it is now. Extend this practice to other objects like planets and other stars. Some of the stars you see when you look at the night sky are thousands, even millions of light years away. Therefore you are seeing them as they were thousands or even millions of years ago. How is this relevant to astrology? Well astrology claims to be able to make certain predictions about the near, or even far future, simply by observing the movements of celestial bodies. scientifically, the only thing an astrologer can claim to predict, is the past. Even that is an overstatement. Keep this in mind whenever you read your horoscope. Consider that the person who writes your horoscope is either as deluded as you are, or is fully aware of the above facts and so is using your gullibility to manipulate you and millions of others, to make money. it is a job. And you fools are giving these liars the excuse they need to continue stealing from your pockets. They do worse though, they steal from your integrity and they steal from your lives. They successfully brainwash you into believing that certain aspects of your lives are 'written'..what is worse is that according to astrology, your 'written path' is the same, or is similar to all the other millions of people who share your star sign. Is it possible to make you feel any LESS special! You buffoons. It steals from your power to govern your life and make your own, objective choices. But what about gravity? Sure, all masses have a gravitational pull but they are simply TOO FAR away to have a significant effect on the earth, let alone the chemicals and hormones that are racing around in your body which govern your moods and behaviours.

Morally: Having established that astrology is just pure hearsay and very bad entertainment, well, how bad can it really be? Trust me it is. Is essentially turns you (the believers) into sheep. That's right, a herd of sheep, powerless to take your lives into your own hands. Astrologers are deceiving you into thinking that some things are 'meant to be' that destiny has a hand in your lives. There is no such thing, neither has there EVER been any kind of proof or evidence backing up any such claims. I can hear the keys being tapped as people frantically search the internet for proof to prove me wrong, do your best. It plays with your subconscious, capitalising on your desires and needs and keeping you intoxicated with magnificent and wonderful fairy tales. Tall dark strangers, the love of your life, economical boons etc etc etc. is this morally correct? Bullshitting people, manipulating their gullibilities and making predictions SO BROAD AND AMBIGUOUS that they can reasonably apply to anyone! Any claim made in a horoscope for, let's say, Leo, can easily apply to any of the other eleven zodiacs. Go on, try this: Get a magazine with horoscopes, cut them out so the names of the zodiacs can not be seen and give a 'Leo horoscope' to a 'Pisces person', letting them believe it is really a 'Pisces horoscope'. The person will in all likelihood claim that certain things came true and that the prediction was spot on. Due to the ambiguity of the predictions, and the fact that our subconscious is incredibly keen at generating what is we so desperately seek, the 'victim' is effectively manipulated into believing. Woosh! there goes your life, and there goes someone's money into the pocket of a smart-ass nobody who takes pride in being 'above' the sheep. You are both just as bad as eachother. The shepherd and the sheep.

Wake up people! Take your lives into your own hands...you only have one! Would you like to be on your death-bed in the future when your time has come, and regret certain things that happened in your lives? Would you like to believe that you could have done things differently rather than having let someone essentially run your life? Now is the time to change your belief. Stop reading the pathetic attempts at control, stop watching the silly old crone/witch who sits on your television screen spouting pure crap expecting you to be thrilled. Stop going to fortune tellers, tarot readers and all other forms of...*coughs* Bullshit! You should be proud to be alive, cherishing this rare thing called life and doing everything in your power to improve your short time here on earth, not letting someone get rid of any integrity you may have, and blatantly insulting your intelligence.

I may be jumping the gun here, but hey, why be politically correct when the people around you are morons? that's right, you are being lied to in your faces and letting it happen. So wake the f$&k up, and start living your life. Don't let anyone else do it for you...idiots. Don't let these liars pull curtains over your eyes.

Astrology, ONE of the great farces of our time.

Go on...prove me wrong.

Monday, 22 December 2008

Scratching my itch: Part III

It has been a trying and testing week for me, emotionally not physically and for reasons I cannot state directly here I have been delayed in continuing this work in progress. But i believe the glass has been overfilled now and it simply cannot contain anymore. It must spill, so whip out your kitchen roll and your wet wipes and let us get on with it...........

Part III

So, the universe has been born, and the earth has formed in one of the billions of galaxies scattered across the cosmos. Abiogenesis has (apparently) occurred and given rise to strange replicators which, being subject to the force of natural selection, have undergone evolution and resulted in millions of different creatures called organisms. Some are simple like bacteria, others belong to the domain of plant life and others have undergone complicated changes over time resulting in complex organisms called animals. Trillions of cells underneath one roof, each with their own genetic code, each gene striving to ensure the ongoing propagation of itself. Some genes form a gene 'pool' and therefore exert effects on other genes in the same pool. Others will in all likelihood never come across each other (I.E. a Human gene will probably never meet a spider gene....probably). Some of these genes have been packaged together into a wonderfully delightful and intelligent, yet extremely gullible and reactive creature called 'Homo-Sapiens'. No, this creature is not necessarily gay as the name may imply, but it is you and me...humanity.

We broke off from our closest common descendant with the chimpanzee about 250,000 years ago somewhere in the plains of Africa. That's right, deep down we are all africans. Some of us remained there, and others in their quest for food and shelter, journeyed off to far away places like the areas of the world we term 'Europe' and 'Arabia' and 'Asia'. Maybe someone swam to Cyprus and set up shop here!! Anyway, after having split off from the main group, travelled to far away lands where the environment was totally different it was therefore only natural that natural selection would favour different phenotypic expressions of genes, those that allowed the split off groups to survive successfully in the conditions they were exposed to. Heat, cold, humidity, grasslands, deserts, forests, tundras and of course the other organisms that inhabit these lands. Prey, predators, scavengers. Everything is connected.

For most of these 250,000 years humanity would stay in small groups called tribes, hunting for their food, protecting their young and fending off any threat. Some would survive and as is the way of things others would not. Genes which favored survival continued to replicate, whilst the rival alleles died off. Families and extended relations tended to stick together, and this is important for this is not just a comfortable situation which appeared by chance. it is genetic. you may tire of hearing the word gene being mentioned so frequently but there is no other way about it. it can explain everything. You see genes have developed for recognising close relation. This is due to the high chance that a close relation will have a copy of the very same gene and so it is beneficial to the survival of the gene to 'care for' or 'look after' other copies of itself. Chances are you care more for your Mother or father than for a stanger's mother or father, care more for your child than for a stranger's child (as much as you may try to deny it). Instinct is what some may like to call it. Suit yourselves.

Time to think......

Tribes continued much like this for many many generations. Depending on the environment, skills developed to allow for easier survival. Axes, hammers..tools in general. Hunting skills, methods to prepare and preserve food as well as ways of passing these learned skills along to children so they too may be prepared to fend for themselves when the time comes. Rival tribes competing for resources would frequently massacre themselves in an attempt to establish dominance. War, bloodshed, murder....nothing foreign to mankind (Note, i hate the word mankind for it seems to have sexist implications...what about womankind? more on that later). Genocide on small scales has been occurring for as long as organisms have existed, how ironic.
What was it that after such long periods of time suddenly gave rise to the abilility to think 'outside the box'? Some say it was the discovery of fire. This may be true, as having discovered fire, man need not live in such fear of unknown threats. There could now be light in the darkness and this offered a tremendous amount of safety. Safety gives time, time away from having to stay alert and vigilant in the dark straining your eyes and ears for a possible predator which may threaten you and your family. This time allowed for introspection. Maybe in his boredom, an ancient warrior whose duty it was to keep watch over the sleeping children at night picked up a stick and drew a line in the dirt. Maybe he realised he could draw a figure which resembled another of his own kind. Maybe this was how art was born.

Art in itself is a way of expression and as more time became available from 'watch duties', creativity could prosper. The development of langauge, possibly the greatest achievement of its time, meant that knowledge need not be learned purely by experience but a 'taste' of what is to come could now be passed on by word of mouth. Somewhere along the journey, humanity began to ask questions. What are we? Why are we here? Why does that great ball of light rise from the same region of the sky? Why does it then go away after a certain amount of time?

Those pesky genes......

Our genetic evolution resulted in our being curious creatures, always seeking a pattern with which we could explain our surroundings and our place in them. Ancient cultures devised methods of drawing up maps to familiarise themselves with the lands. They developed methods of forming building blocks from sand and water to create solid structures in which they could shelter themselves from the elements. Societal structures developed to satisfy the need for a hierarchy..this was only natural as by looking at apes and monkeys it is observed that a strong hierarchy does exist and it ensures the existence of a degree of order amongst the chaos. A group which was not structured in this way could not defend itself as effectively from threats, and in-group fighting and bickering would occur. Groups like this would probably not survive for very long. An ignorant age this was...but excusable, we did not know any better. Power struggles began as power was a coveted thing. He or she who had power could control resources and ensure his survival at the expense of others'. Ignorant views of nature meant that killing was an everyday thing seeing as empathy hadn't extended beyond the range of the immediate family.

Aaaa, the lack of a good book to read.....

If you don't have a good book to read, just make up a good story right? right. Let us see what good storytelling can do for someone. One of my favorite quotations of late is one put forward by Christopher Hitchens:
"Humans are pattern seeking creatures, and they will prefer a conspiracy or junk theory to none at all".
In an attempt to answer some of the mysteries that humans faced from their conception up until a few thousand years ago, stories to give meaning to many unexplainable phenomena were told from person to person. Sure they must have a source, and the source may not be a single person but groups of people each adding to their version as it is passed down through generations. In Egypt the sun became a god rising to do battle every morning, only to be defeated every night when another god came to shoo him away. Before even the egyptian gods, people had worshipped and revered Pagan gods for many years. The sun, the moon, nature, the woods the animals. There have been gods for almost everything you can think of including such things as fertility, food, wine and harvest. Gods have had lightning bolts in their hands, chariots at their feet and wreaths of flame on their heads. What do they all have in common? they give answers to the unanswerable. They give reason to observed events that are so present that they cannot be ignored. Most of these gods have now been relegated to 'myth' and we all accept them as unreal. Some aspects though have survived and have been mutated into new gods, gods with different personalities. People unfortunately live and die in the name of gods...in the name of manmade constructs in the mind.

The latest of these constructs, the ones that we are all familiar with are the Christian, The Islamic and the Judaic gods. Each of them has a book. Each of them have a common source of the first half of that book. Each of them have certain key characters in common. I mean...how boring!! If you are going to inspire your nation and give them moral values and meaning in their lives you would think that you might just try to be original, rather than say "Ok, let's take this part, yes, i like Abraham, he is kinda cool, but no I am not too fond of Jesus taking the part of the last prophet so here is another one". Humour aside, all religions and their associated unbelievable, physics defying tales are man made. And they are a poor job. They revere the male form and have for millenia kept women in their supposed 'place' as inferior beings. The gods themselves reek of masculinity and it is off putting...why couldn't i as a child have been told god is a beautiful woman who cares for her children? Maybe if the gods had been woman made then instead of shedding oceans of blood in the name of them, we might instead have nurtured love, tenderness and understanding....traits typically associated with women. Our loss.

But in the meantime.........

Throughout all of this brainwashing, natural selction must have favored an inquisitive mind, one that prospered because of its ability to see through stage shows and mesmerizing mystical tales. This inquisitive mind may have made a living out of this skill, devloping certain 'virtues' and 'morals' that man should follow in order to be 'right'. In lands where religious dominance was lax, minds could mingle and exchange ideas without fear of censorship. In lands such as these, let us say ancient Greece for example, the greatest single step of mankind was slowly fermenting inside people's minds. Philosophers, or those who quest for knowledge, began to question their every day reality and thought very strongly about the status quo. They began to ask questions like: what is reality? What am i? am i really alive? They also considered that religion and god/s might not have been the answers we had been looking for. Ways of describing the world were needed and mathematics bloomed beyond the simple arithmetic which was needed for counting pomegranates and sheep. Free thinking was encouraged and in some places, like Greece lets say, it was embraced. It is not for naught that the ancient philosophers are held in such high regard, for they gave us logic and reason, as well as other things we have come to depend on (rightly or wrongly) such as democracy. it is humbling to think of just how gullible an uneducated mind is, to think that while this incredible enlightenment was going on, in other parts of the world the exact opposite was happening. The pursuit of true objective knowledge was being stopped in its tracks, even punished. Punished by men who claimed to have the favor of god on their side..but whose god? The god in their mind, passed down through history, or the god which benefitted them because it gave them power? The god which told them women were not to work so generally the income of a nation must suffer. The god which said that someone poor who stole a loaf of bread was to be beheaded in public after breakfast and before the entertainment.

It is important to note that the philosophers probably told stories too, but they didn't believe them literally. They used them as analogies or metaphors to pass a meaning across. To teach something they deemed important, like one of Aesop's fables....ending with a moral. A real moral, one innate to humanity, not given to us by an imaginary spirit in the sky. A moral that derives from genetic sources, one that evolved to ensure the survival of genetic information. One that comples someone to care for their kin, and one that has favored the development of 'empathy neurons' in modern brains. Apes show this peculiar characteristic too. there are, as it has been discovered, neurons or centres in the brain which are activated when a fellow creature (even not of the same species) is depressed, hurt or in danger. These neurons allow us to 'empathise', or mirror the feelings within our own heads so me may feel the torment too. There is lots of evidence of the evolution of these particular biological traits. It seems that morality is not derived from a book after all, but is within us all, it just needs to be explored and prodded, like all things that are worth pursuing.

Two vastly differing stand points, one governed by the exploration of logic, and one by the religious doctrine. Both were probably favored by natural selection to develop, and they occurred at different times. One had roots thousand of years old, stemming from primitive times when answers were desperately needed. The other relatively new on the scene, fitting comfortably with the times. A time that needn’t imply war and struggle, but education and thought. Religion may have served its purpose to keep groups together and give them 'guidelines' on how to live correctly, but there were now minds ready to probe the inner workings of nature, the inner workings of the consciousness itself. Had the time come to throw away old beliefs to make way for new, objective and rational thoughts? To unlearn what had been learnt?

In short, do we still need to believe in miracles? Do we still need to believe in the boogeyman? Or have we matured enough to see things from a different perspective. We will explore this further next time...thanks for reading.

Thoughts are welcome, please feel free to contribute.

Saturday, 13 December 2008

Kanye's done it again!

Just to let you know, Kanye west's latest album '808s & Heartbreak' is here , and it is sublime.

He has evolved yet again, keeping it personal and keeping it relative.

Thank goodness that there is someone alive who can keep hip-hop going, and keep it real. All hip-hop seems to be about nowadays is booty, bling, bitches, bust-ups and ...bullshit.

A slap into reality, the tragedy amongst comedies, heartbreaking stuff. Enjoy.

Scratching my itch :Part II

Ok, so i was out last night with friends and i am slightly hungover (from 2 drinks, pathetic). Today i wonder why i went out to a club blaring music out of contraptions called loudspeakers, surrounded by other people in a space obviously too small to accomodate everyone comfortably ( i was stepped on twice...by HEAVY people), dancing, talking, gossiping, some looking for fun, others for sex, others for a fight. i wonder why i ordered 2 glasses of a liquid containing Ethanol, a particular chemical that makes us feel euphoric but can make us behave in ridiculously childish ways. It also has the ability to make me wake up in the morning to wonder and contemplate such things as these. So..in a quest to understand these behaviours and those of the people around me, i continue from the point i left off with my last note....


Part II

For those who missed the first part (probably because they were watching mind rotting, Spanish soap-operas with very beautiful ladies), I recommend you read it because although this will make sense on its own, the context will be lacking.


link to Part I for the lazy ones:

http://theperpetualitch.blogspot.com/2008/12/scratching-my-itch.html

And yet another great mystery…..

So, we have already seen how the universe came to be but we do not understand why it came to be. There is of course a lot more to the universe but we will get to that later. What interests us right now is how we came to be, and in a nutshell it happened like this:

The planet we call Earth, or Terra Firma, has just cooled down after being a large target for all sorts of stray rocks and asteroids and has also just acquired its very own atmosphere of gases due to its gravitational pull. It is a very inhospitable place and almost nothing like our planet today. The atmosphere has little or no life-giving oxygen and on the contrary, is full of poisonous gases like ammonia. The oceans are host to a multitude of chemicals, which have formed as elements produced in the stars came together under the influence of electrostatic forces to form what we call today ‘The Primordial soup’. Quaint as this title may sound, and controversial to some, it does offer an interesting theory into how life came about.

Why the oceans and not land? Well the early earth lacked the protective layer which we know as the ozone layer and so if any life was to form on land it would quickly be burned to a cinder by solar radiation arriving from the sun and cosmic radiation from space. This radiation still hits the earth today, but it is greatly buffered by the ozone layer and we also have an organ called ‘skin’ which protects us. So, a vast array of molecules (and I do mean vast, as the possibilities of molecules arising from different combinations of roughly 100 elements is endless) have formed and are ‘swimming’ around in the oceans.

At this point a big question mark needs to be aptly placed. What exactly is it that caused some of these molecules, namely the vast plethora containing carbon atoms, to come together and unite into a very specific type of molecule which has the innate ability to replicate itself (that is, to make copies of itself)? What a strange property. Unquestionably strange. In the primordial ocean, a specific molecule (or even a different number of molecules) somehow drew other similar molecules towards it, arranged them into a manner like itself, and produced a copy. This may sound trivial, but it is the basis of all life as we know it. Ok let’s look a bit deeper into this.




Replicators: The true units of life


So, let us assume that amongst the huge variety of molecules present in the primordial oceans, some had formed into units called ‘Amino Acids’ and others ‘Nucleotides’. Not so difficult to imagine as we know they do really exist and they have also been synthesized in laboratories today –with that said, all attempts to endow these synthesized molecules with life have thus far been unsuccessful. These aminos and nucleotides may have had certain affinities to other similar aminos and nucleotides, and whenever they bumped into one whilst floating along in the oceans, similarities or physical forces may have bonded them together (Much like the manner in which enzymes act upon very specific sites on other proteins or chemicals. Too far fetched you ask? What are the chances? Well, really, what are they? In a -for our purposes- infinite ocean of molecules it need happen only once. And apparently it did). More bonding or linking would have resulted in longer and longer chains. Aminos linked together form proteins, and nucleotides linked together form DNA, or for our assumption, an ancient analog which behaved like DNA albeit in a simpler manner. Let us now assume that this process was occurring all over the oceans all over the earth until essentially all the individual units (aminos and nucleotides) had been ‘used up’ in the construction of long chains. They needn’t have exhausted the supplies, only minimized them.

The possible combinations are vast and each different combination would result in different characteristics and properties. Some chains may have drawn units to them which in turn caused the breakage of a longer chain. Other chains may have curled up and arranged themselves into complex shapes, due to the forces acting upon different parts of them. Others, and the most relevant to us, may have drawn other units to them arranging them into an identical chain alongside the original, and once a certain, undetermined length was reached, the unique combination would cause the two identical bonded chains to separate. Twins if you like. Successful replications would increase the number of the chains and decrease the number of other, unsuccessful, chains. Eventually there would be a vast majority of the successful replicators. Do we have life yet? That depends on your definition of life. If you define it as a unit or object that can make copies of itself then yes we have life. If you define it as units or objects which can think for themselves, then we are far from it.




Nature is choosy

So an ocean full of replicators interspersed with individual building blocks of chemicals and elements. If replicators just used raw materials and continued to make identical copies of themselves, then nothing would ever change and eventually there would be just replicators floating around. Cue the fundamental forces again.

The complicated forces and physical processes occurring on the atomic and subatomic level give rise to radiation. Radiation is how extremely energetic particles express themselves. They can come from the decay (breaking down) of an atom as it is hit by a particle (such as a photon-a particle of light). This would ‘knock’ a part of the atom off, such as an electron and send it off with extremely high speed and energy to crash into another atom it may happen to come across. If a particle crashes into an atom on a chain of ancient DNA, it may knock another particle off, causing a change in the chain. If the change is catastrophic then the chain is doomed and no replication will occur. If on the other hand the change is such that it doesn’t put the integrity of the chain in jeopardy and allows it to continue its replication, but if it is significant enough to cause a noticeable change in how the chain replicates then this change may result in a new, similar copy but one which is not 100% identical. This is what we call a ‘mutation’ and may as a consequence, cause the chain to take on new characteristics and properties. It may cause a particular unit on the chain to bind to another unit which sticks out from the main body of the chain and so offers limited resistance to any detrimental effects that the environment may offer. Remember, there are still elements around in the oceans and they may have many adverse reactions with chains. These new ‘lightly armored’ chains would inevitably be favored in the competitive struggle as they would have a higher chance of not being destroyed by any one of a number of possible factors. Their numbers would increase at the expense of ‘non-armored’ chains. Nature will ‘Select’ the armored chain and thus the chances of the chain surviving long enough to successfully replicate into a new armored chain increase.

Use your imagination for a while here (and in the process save me the effort of continuing in this mundane, technical analogy of natural selection) and draw an image in your head of chains like the armored one being further struck by radiation which causes beneficial effects to the survivability of the chain. Maybe the armor effect continues and the chain ends up, after many successful mutations and replications, with a wall of external units resembling what we might call a ‘wall’. Maybe this was the first cell with a physical barrier protecting the ancient DNA inside. Other mutations may have caused other beneficial effects such as the ability to bind to certain areas of an amino acid, linking consecutive aminos together into a protein which, as it floated away from the DNA, became entangled into the wall and by chance offered another benefit, like allowing the passage of other molecules and elements into and out of the cell wall more easily. Maybe it hindered the passage of molecules. And the possibilities continue…..
One very important note here is that in order for natural selection to favor a change, there must be a change in the first place, a change which benefits the carrier (the cell or the chain of DNA itself) and allows it to successfully replicate. No mutation, no bombardment by another particle would result in no benefit, and thus no selection.


Simple beginnings….

So we have theorized how replicators came to be and how they may have ‘evolved’ (that is change through generations, by means of natural selection, a process that predominantly – but not exclusively- gives rise to beneficial changes).
The appearance of the replicators is still a mystery and there are multiple theories some far more plausible than others. The one I chose to illustrate is that of ‘abiogenesis’, the creation of replicating molecules as a result of the physical forces present in all parts of the universe (Electrostatic forces between molecules, and nuclear forces responsible for radiation). It may be the right one but it may not. What is unequivocally certain is that natural selection is the driving force responsible for favoring changes in organisms (they needn’t even be complicated, simple chains will do) and that evolution occurs because of it.

A simple cell may have undergone a multitude of changes, passed down in consecutive successful replications resulting in a slightly more complex cell, which itself in turn evolved by the same means into more and more complicated cells. Maybe this is how the first bacteria came about. And this is how once they did come about, individual cells came together in a way which benefitted them and so nature favored the coming together and the number of ‘groups’ of cells increased. These groups were the first multicellular organisms. Over hundreds and thousands of generations, spanning huge lengths of time, more and more complicated organisms could come about. Some would anchor themselves to solid objects and so could have a fixed position from which to replicate themselves while using up resources from the ocean (The first plants maybe). Some with outer walls or a ‘skin’ of sorts which benefitted them in the oceans, but by chance also benefitted them to survive on land for short periods of time could come onto land using their aquatic limbs to clumsily move around and replicate there. Future copies would be far safer than in the oceans, where there are already many different organisms all competing for resources. The first to come onto land would naturally be favored and numbers would increase. Other mutations could give rise to improved limbs, improved protection, more efficient ways to extract resources from air as opposed to water…and so on.


Complex issues

As evolution continues and different species arise, some increase in size, others in strength or speed, others in their abilities to use the organs they have developed to sense the world around them. Some succeed and some do not. Species have always gone extinct and it is said that there are currently less than 1% of species alive than have ever existed throughout the earth’s history. The times involved in evolution are beyond imagination as it requires successful reproduction and organisms may need a certain amount of time to reach physical conditions or ‘ages’ to allow for reproduction. Bacteria evolve quickly as they replicate very frequently, thus they evolve faster then more complex organisms which may replicate infrequently, such as mammals which take from months to many many years to give rise to new generations.

The point is that our race, the human race, has resulted from a long sequence of mutations and replications spanning billions of years, just as all other creatures alive on the earth today. There is no blueprint for evolution, no purposeful design, as it relies on chance. The chance arising of a mutation which may benefit the host organism, by improving its chances of replication in the environment it is to be found. Of course changes occur in other ways too in complex life, such as the crossing over of chromosome regions during mitosis and meiosis. The underlying principle is the same. Therefore it is not reasonable to assume we are the ‘end’ result of a design as the forces that affect natural selection are still at play and evolution continues. The changes in successive appearances of different species can be traced throughout time and there are literally mountains of evidence found in fossil records and geological research to solidify the (wrongly named) ‘theory of evolution’. We can see how we got here but it is very difficult, possibly impossible to predict how life will continue to evolve.


And so here we are


You are reading and I am writing. I am writing with the intention of my words being read and so I have planned out what I would like to achieve. You may be having ideas now, influenced by what you read or you may think I am going a bit mad and obviously have far too much free time to be here writing this. Believe me, I may be going mad but I have little free time (insert smiley here, which seems inappropriate so I will let you do it in your head). It is strange, to think that evolution favored the development of brains, essentially control centres for all the complex processes involved in the functioning of an organism carrying its DNA in each cell of its body, which is in turn composed of units called molecules in turn made up of atoms formed in the stars which are in turn made up of tiny particles which came into existence with the big bang. It is as if natural selection has been acting since the very beginning starting on particles and ending up, currently, with organisms. Maybe it should be called ‘Universal selection’. Maybe it will be.

At some point, nature favored a change which gave its host organism a larger cerebrum in order to deal with the environment it was found in. Better 3 dimensional analyzing in order to make full use of the very dexterous limbs that had developed, more neurons in order to cope with the added task of being able to vocalize certain ideas and expressions. Up until this point all complex creatures with a brain were essentially unaware of why they did certain things and made certain choices. Don’t misunderstand the point here, animals are certainly not automated creatures which are run purely by instinct, they are aware of themselves and so strive to survive and keep themselves alive. But certain instincts do overpower other choices in certain conditions. Pull a string along the floor in front of a cat and it will undoubtedly chase it, despite the fact that the cat probably knows the string is not a creature. It is moving quickly, like prey would do, and so the subconscious thoughts compel the cat to chase. Funny, I see some humans behaving in analogous manners also. The difference here is that the larger cerebrum which is now present in humans allowed for one very simple and yet incredibly powerful (I cannot emphasize this enough) skill. The ability to reason!

Billions and billions of years of ongoing natural selection had led to a creature which could now try to make some sense of this environment and reality in which it was found. Ingeniously using this skill to create tools to help survival, to secure a mate with which to reproduce, to dominate over other creatures which lacked this ability of ‘higher reasoning’. According to archaeological and geological evidence, we as a species appeared on the scene roughly 250,000 years ago, not a long time on the grand scale of the cosmos (14 billion years) and even on the scale of the earth (4.5 billion years). The closest relative we have is the ape which is uncanny in its resemblance to us yet it lacks the one thing that makes us so different. It is a small difference, only a mere step from ape to human, just a few changes in DNA sequence which make all the difference. Yet these few changes mean we can pry into the subconscious and understand why we do the things we do. But, for my purposes here, we are fresh on the scene having just taken a few steps out of the African plains where we appeared and are establishing a primitive foothold in the wild world. We have no technology yet, no real society, no politics just our senses and the ability to use them. It is a ‘dog eat dog’ world, or at this time, a ‘Human eat human’ or ‘Human eat animal’ world. I leave it here for now, to give you time to digest before we move onto other subjects which are of vast interest to all of us. The controversies are about to begin and personally I am looking forward to stepping on some peoples toes and possibly shattering some bubbles. Thanks for reading so far.

Remember, comments, crticisms, and debate are strongly encouraged. I want to hear what you have to say whether you agree or not because debate, that is, civilised debate is another of the abilities we have developed, and one which is a very important tool to forward our understanding......so.....don't be shy!




Stella Ge. wrote
at 3:43pm on December 8th, 2008
I am not shy Georgio!!! :D Thank you for giving me the chance to express my self !! CONGRADULATIONS! Katarxin exw na pw oti oi akadimaikes sou gnwseis einai stin koryfi!!!!!!!!! What you have said is all a great scientific expanation of our evolution e.t.c. Though, nature was created by someone and this someone is the one who made it work this way for a specific reason!!!!!!! I would like to give you an advice: Try not to explain everything based on logic and molecules! Everything that you said is more than correct and i belueve it as well. Yet, i support that there is something more!! Of course, this is my point of you babe!!! You Know me!! :p xxxxxxxxx Pantws xreiazetai mas kapoios logios sto facebook! Mpravo pou pires prwtoboylia na analiseis to 8ema!!!
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 10:04pm on December 8th, 2008
@ George
a very informative piece dude and you were pretty accurate scientifically good work but dont let understanding these pathetic humans be your motivation for seeking the meaning of life since the means will be greater than the ends.
they are a lost cause corrupted by religions and collective ideologies while they are purely selfish on the inside, its what we call a dead cause man.
the only way to fix this socity is to drive it into absoloute chaos where only the smarter the better and the fittist would sujrvive only then our human race will take its natural evolutionary path by appling natural selection again.
else we are heading into darker ages where the intellect is a slave of the society and his work is looted by the alterist and utilitarian parasite.

@ Stella
"Try not to explain everything based on logic and molecules!" and what is he spouse to explain it with?? wishes and emotions.
just feeling like earth should have been flat doesn't make it flat.
the nature of emotions feelings and desires cant proof or disproof facts and theories that are based on mere solid scientific research method.
please give me a reason to make the unnecessary assumption that there is someone who designed this very flawed universe and made all these very flawed organisms.
George D Georgiou wrote
at 10:47pm on December 8th, 2008
hehehe, got debate going here....i like it:)
But you may both want to save some ammunition for later entries!
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 12:58pm on December 9th, 2008
(comment was to long had to split it)
nothing HAS to be created by something, but somethings CAN be created by other things, try not to think in absolutes , stella you could be right, you know the happy world you do live in could have been created by something (i'd like to correct you, someone makes "it" sound more human, which might be possible, but i don't think that's what you were trying to say), and that something could have been the big bang or some guy with a lot of strings and fingers to do one big puppet show.

All this is great information George, you know me i like to argue so lets take this up a notch.

what i like about this post, is its simplistic way of explaining everything, quit accurate, but as you and i know there is always to sides of everything.
now you've clearly explained how life is evolving, and everything goes through natural selection.
so the way we are now. body features, eithics, needs, desires come from our great ape friend and from natural selection.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 12:58pm on December 9th, 2008
all this i will haply agree on :) and i shouldn't see why anyone could disagree on this, there is to much irrefutable evidence.

now, why i might not like this, is cause it obviously puts down religion as a whole.
now i know you think religion is sadistic, manipulative, disgraceful as soon on i do so to sometimes. but religion is one of the main factors you came an wrote this, cause you felt that you were tied up and getting beaten by religion with its illogical phrases, like most other scientists, writers and so on, that they fought against it by finding the real "truth" (its in quotes because because someday someone might come and prove all of evolution wrong, just like how they proved that the molecule isn't the smallest thing, is it was proved before), which in some twisted way is evolution in itself.

in a nut shell what i am trying to get at, is religion might be bad, but not that bad since it helped your brain evolve trying to prove it wrong.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 12:59pm on December 9th, 2008
now arguments against this is something like, who's to say we wouldn't have found all the answers if religion was there, well who's to say we could have. point here is this is the path natural selection wanted to go.

*sorry for grammatical errors and punctuation and spelling mistakes, came back from a calculus 2 exam and i cannot be arsed to fix everything ;)
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 3:26pm on December 9th, 2008
The only problem I have with all this George is the "spontaneous generation" business. That is, you put a bunch of molecules together, and Woof!! you have LIFE!

If it is possible, why did it happen only once? Why, with all our present technology, can we not put some inanimate matter together and "breath" life into it? Maybe we really don't know what life is. Why is it that death is such an irreversible process? How is death different from life? What is that special ingredient that differentiates the two?

Just questions to make you think. This discussion need not get religious, although it usually does. For the record I don't think that belief in a God and belief in science have to be mutually exclusive. Religion also has gone through thousands of years of evolution and if it is in a truly sad state today (which it is), many are to blame, not the least of which are the clerics themselves (Batopaidi anyone?) Religion and belief in a God are two severely different things.

For the record, I believe it is wrong for persons of God to deny the results of science. This is the wrong approach to a reconciliation between the two issues. Trying to deny the results of science is like stepping into a lit room and turning the lights off. But at the same time we must be SURE that the science that we have at our disposal today is the whole truth. After all, in the Medieval Ages the scientists of that time believed that they knew everything that there was to be known. Let us not fall into the same trap. Quantum mechanics is beginning to recognize the importance of the effect of the observer on quantal phenomena. The equations of QM must include the effect of the observer, and they don't yet. Could psychic phenomena, denied by formal science now, be explainable by such a new theory?

Just more food for thought...

Dr. P.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 4:07pm on December 9th, 2008
@Garo
“its in quotes because because someday someone might come and prove all of evolution wrong, just like how they proved that the molecule isn't the smallest thing, is it was proved before”
Evolution is both a fact and a valid theory based on solid facts, many people confuse the terms used in the scientific method the term evolution can be used to describe the change in the gene pool of certain specie of organisms in the course of time which existence is an indubitable fact. Such as the dam mosquitoes that I can’t get rid off with the pesticide any more and these changes have been observed in the labs and have been well documented.
While claiming that molecules is the smallest thing was merely a hypothesis and until nowadays no one claim to know what is the smallest thing or even if there is a finite size for the smallest thing.
We simply don’t know!!!
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 4:07pm on December 9th, 2008
Now my personal opinion is that religion is the ultimate struggle between our intelligent nature that wants to explore explain and change and our animalistic nature that wants to hide retain and keep it old school to the bone.
There is also other reasons why we came up with idea of religion, if read in the history you will find that for ages the intellects were looking for the best explanations for the phenomenons around them. questions like why does the sun rise from the east? And how do birds fly? And then they started a path of scientific discoveries that brought peace and prosperity to human race but mean while there was these gaps, questions which they couldn’t answer with their level of knowledge and awareness and thus the common man had to stick an explanation for it so he used god.
Why does the sun rise from the east? Well because god made it that way.
Then as the time passed we grew wiser and the gaps kept getting smaller and smaller until a point where there is no god gaps left.
We also like to use god when we feel helpless about things that matters the most and there is always god the politics and god the business.
And the conclusion that remains is that religion has divided us, made us kill each others and kept us in the darkness of violence and ignorant for ages to come.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 4:27pm on December 9th, 2008
@ Dr. P
"The only problem I have with all this George is the "spontaneous generation" business. That is, you put a bunch of molecules together, and Woof!! you have LIFE!"
the earth had a certain environment at that early stage that isn’t fully known to us yet, many aspects in the environment back then could have been the cause of Abiogenesis there is many logical scientific theories that requires no assumptions based on faith and you can get more info about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

“If it is possible, why did it happen only once? Why, with all our present technology, can we not put some inanimate matter together and "breath" life into it?”
We actually did make such living cells called the proto cells however this field of research is still very young and the models produced need much more refinement which can be achieved much faster if not for the fundamentalist’s powers in the world that is enforcing illogical nor rational so called “ethical” restrictions on proto cell research.
“How is death different from life? What is that special ingredient that differentiates the two?”
Life: the existence of energy and matter together in a model that is self directing, self replicating, automated self repair and self destruction.
Death: the previous model cease to exist with the same functions and breaks into energy and matter.
They theme very different to me and almost as different as opposites.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 4:31pm on December 9th, 2008
and off the topic hey garo Whats up dude.... long time no see
George D Georgiou wrote
at 4:50pm on December 9th, 2008
You know what's funny about this whole discussion, the fact that i didn't mention god anywhere at all in the passage!
Obviously you all know me and so you pre-empted my thoughts, but that doesn't change the fact that none of you (apparently) read my passage objectively.
God may well come into it later,but si far i didn't bring him up....and then people say i am preoccupied with god:)
Anyway...Dr.P
"If it is possible, why did it happen only once? Why, with all our present technology, can we not put some inanimate matter together and "breath" life into it? Maybe we really don't know what life is. Why is it that death is such an irreversible process? How is death different from life? What is that special ingredient that differentiates the two?"

Apart from Wael's response above, i say: How do you know it only happened once? We have explored a tiny tiny fraction of known space. Can you, or anyone else confidently say that abiogenesis occurred only once? for all we know our universe could be thriving with different forms of life.

And why have we failed to reproduce accurate results? Well can you create the exact conditions that were the state of affairs a few billion years ago on earth? Do you know exactly how much radiation was reaching the earth, and of what form? Do you know of ALL the possible molecules that existed back then? I think not.

The irony is, that even if life does exist out there the chances of us finding them are close to none due to the distances involved and the limits set by the speed of light. it is far more probable that an alien life form that has a very long life span (spanning millenia at least) would reach us as opposed to vice versa.

Just one more thing, i am pretty sure there was a time in recent scientific history in which the general consensus was that our universe was the only one in existence. There are now plausible theories which may shatter that belief. Can the same thing not be said about the earth being the only place with life?
George D Georgiou wrote
at 4:59pm on December 9th, 2008
Post was too long:)

Death may be irreversible, due to the fact that cells considered alive need a constant influx of resources and materials in order to function and be considered 'alive'. If that influx is cut off for a relatively short period of time, the functions cease, entropy kicks in and death is the result.

BUT, death need not be definite. What i mean is that i believe death can be avoided. Telomeres probably hold some clues, and death may even be an evolutionary adaptation preventing creatures from reaching an age that results in efficient functioning due to wear and tear (Which is again an unavoidable, inexorable manifestation of entropy). That is, until we can learn ways to avoid or minimise wear and tear. But people just don't give much of a flying fuck about their health. Telomerase is incredibly interesting and you might want to check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hela_cells

Garen, my dear dear friend! I don't think i am getting beaten on by religion:) but i DO feel that the majority of humanity is getting beaten on by religion. To put it another way, religion can't hold a finger up against me but it seems to have smothered it's dirty greasy palms in everything else on this planet.

Anyway, you did well to phrase some counter arguments against yourself:) tingi tingi!

I will deal with religion later, and boy will i deal with it!
Kian Sharifi wrote
at 4:59pm on December 9th, 2008
Well I'm just enjoying the debate for now, I'll throw in my opinion once i get the time.
All in all, a great and informative piece of article.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 5:16pm on December 9th, 2008
George i read the passage objectively but then others brought up god and taunted me into the debate and you know how much i love debates.
Stella Ge. wrote
at 7:00pm on December 9th, 2008
Garen, my dear, i don't think in absolutes!! Honestly, i have read the article objectively!! And i do know about the Big bang!!!! Also, i don't disagree with the fact that what George mentions is proven!!!! I just add that there is a God who made these things work this way!!!
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 7:03pm on December 9th, 2008
why
Stella Ge. wrote
at 7:05pm on December 9th, 2008
what do you mean why?
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 7:14pm on December 9th, 2008
"The irony is, that even if life does exist out there the chances of us finding them are close to none due to the distances involved and the limits set by the speed of light."
don't be so sure those ants in my little glass box digging all kinds of tunnels and struggling to survive in there dont even know they are in my room and there is alot of the world out there other than their glass box.
check this and calculate the odds:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
George D Georgiou wrote
at 7:15pm on December 9th, 2008
Wael you may ask why, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
You know very well that you and i agree on many aspects but disagree on a few others..could anyone come along and change your mind with a single opinion? I think not.
Same applies for Stella, she believes like many others, that there is a God. If that is ever to change (not for you and me to decide) it will be of her own choice and understanding, not mine or yours.

With that said, i certainly don't believe there is a god, at least as certain as one can reasonably be.
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 7:18pm on December 9th, 2008
@M.wael Alkel
If I am reading you correctly, you seem to be saying that "since science works, God does not exist". Isn't that, well, unscientific?

Filling in the gaps with scientific explanations does not explain God away. The fact is, and admit it, you cannot prove that God does not exist, in as much as I cannot prove absolutely that He does.

Also, I have to disagree with your evaluation that religion is man made to serve certain purposes. A stimulus had to have been given. This stimulus may have been what appeared to be supernatural phenomena to people. Of course, what appears to be supernatural is simply what cannot yet be explained by science...but give it time. What I am saying is don't be so smug and cocky that your science can explain everything. It cannot.

@Stella Ge.
Keep up the good work...
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 7:19pm on December 9th, 2008
Yeah very true just if we had enough power to force them into
Stella Ge. wrote
at 7:43pm on December 9th, 2008
What i really wanted to express Georgio and others is what Photos said!!! Science cannot explain everything yet!! So, if science cannot explain totaly everything i means that there is sth superior!!! though, it doesn't mean that i don't have me doudts!!! I'm searching the issue every day!!! kai i aformi itan o George!!!! :p
George D Georgiou wrote
at 7:53pm on December 9th, 2008
I have to quote the Venerable Photos Hadjigeorgiou (Dr.P) again.(relax, he won't give me a better grade no matter how much ass-kissing!):

"Of course, what appears to be supernatural is simply what cannot yet be explained by science...but give it time."

Simply beautiful, and expresses my innermost love and hope for science!

@Stella
....glad to have been of some assistance in the process of 'Objective thinking'....now to apply to the other 6 billion:P
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 7:57pm on December 9th, 2008
"Of course, what appears to be supernatural is simply what cannot yet be explained by science" that is what i called god gaps
George D Georgiou wrote
at 8:07pm on December 9th, 2008
I can't help but notice throughout people's texts, the implication that natural selection has a purpose.

@ Garen

I quote: "point here is this is the path natural selection wanted to go."

You are giving natural selection a consciousness. There is no "path it wants to go", no "Yellow brick road", and no conscious force guiding it. It is the biased selection of a beneficial mutation or change on the genetic level, biased in that the benefit is favored against the other allele, but the whole process happens by the UNBIASED,UNPREJUDICED mechanism of mutation or cross over. Call it chance, call it luck, call it probability. Call it any of these things, but be careful not to give it a plan.

Dish boom!
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 9:18pm on December 9th, 2008
okay here is the idea in structured English for programers
while intelligent selfish organism that screw up the system doesn't exist do
[random factors->certain environment-> ->randomly occurring factors->random mutations
( if organism can fit and reproduce in its environment then live another day
else
die)]
print "humans are up"
while the intelligent selfish organism haven't destroyed it self do
[if (organism can fit and reproduce in its environment) OR (humans want it to stick around) then live another day
else
die)]
any way off the topic guys the search for extraterrestrials is an obligation for every man and woman of science and its the long asked question but not yet answered are we alone? participate in the search by either donating money or donating some of processing time of your cpu and ram
project SETI @home is a project by the university of Berkeley where they use radio telescopes to capture terabytes of noise in the space and instead of processing it with the expensive super computer the use a tiny piece of your pc ability to run detection algorithms through a software that u download and install and then it download packets of raw data, process it and upload it back on the server.
the guys make no profit so please help them to help humanity.
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/
thank you
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 8:05am on December 10th, 2008
Regarding extraterrestrials, I find it highly improbable if life exists on Earth that it will not also exist somewhere else in this VAST universe. Through my double negative I am saying that if life flourished here, then it most certainly exists elsewhere. It may take a different form but I'm sure that it does. Finding it might be a problem, given our "meager" technology.

Regarding your "god gaps" Wael, science may fill in all the gaps but that will still not mean that God does not exist. Using science to prove or disprove God is like using a fishing hook to open a bottle of wine.

I feel that I'm in good company regarding belief in God. Men of the stature of Albert Einstein had the sense to be aware of a creator. What I have seen over and over again in universities abroad is that during and shortly after the acquisition of the Bachelor degree many young people feel they know it all, that science is the answer to everything. The more you progress in science, the higher you go, the more likely you are to accept the notion of God.

As an aside, something that science should attempt to explain is the VAST power of the human subconscious mind. Now there is a lot of room for discovery. Human healers, the power of visualization, are just a couple of examples of where the subconscious mind rocks. Quantum mechanics states that everything is possible, just that some things are very improbable. Perhaps the subconscious mind can play with the probabilities.

George, you know very well that I'm too objective to respond to any ass-kissing, and this works both ways. We may disagree on various issues but this does not predispose me one way or another. We all have free choice to believe what we want for whatever reason. I'd still love to see you score 100% on my next test next Wednesday...
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 9:07am on December 10th, 2008
dear dr.p i haven't got my bachelor yet (ill need another 3 semesters) and I am not claiming that science has explained every thing so far or that I know the answer for everything but what am saying is if science filled these gaps there will be no valid reason for people to believe in a creator.
such assumption wouldn't be reasonable or logical since they are believing because they simply want to.
and why would they want to? this belief has torned countries and families apart while driving wars and terror all over the planet.
if there exist a scenario that requires less assumptions then by logic its the most probable scenario and adding god to the scientific models we have achieved is like pissing in milk.
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 9:33am on December 10th, 2008
Just a comment on the wars based on religious beliefs, etc.

This only shows the imperfect nature of man. If man misunderstood the principles of religion, or decided to interpret them as they please to in order to gain power or money, well that is hardly a good reason to blame God.

Don't make the mistake of equating God and organized religion.

Unfortunately, in this day and age Christianity is under attack. This will get much worse as the years pass. Many use the fanaticism of Islam to blame organized religion worldwide and irrespective of origin. It would not surprise me at all if at some point the Bible was declared as "hate literature" and made illegal to possess or to believe in.

When science has filled in all the gaps, people may still choose to believe in a Creator. But this belief is neither unreasonable nor illogical. I cannot see a black hole but I believe that it exists because of the effect it has on nearby matter and light.

Of course, we can argue forever and neither you nor I will be able to change each other's minds. That's the beauty of free choice...
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 11:39am on December 10th, 2008
its logical to believe that black wholes exist but it isn't logical to assume that there is black dragons living on the other side of the wholes and are causing the gravitational waves to emit out of it.
why because assuming that there is a dragon inside the black whole is completely unnecessary according to ocams razor.
and the same way the godless scientific model of an infinite universes in a multiverse system, a white or black whole suffered from cosmic inflation causing the formation of a singularity that later expanded rapidly leaving stars and galaxies behind then on some cool little planet abiogenesis occurred and life has started then along the line of evolution humans came over, all of that is based on facts or on theories supported by facts while adding god to it is nothing but making an assumption that isnt reasonable or logical.
and ohh man don't get me started on Christianity, its in no way better than the other faces of ignorance Islam Judaism Hinduism and even Buddhism.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 1:01pm on December 10th, 2008
as for this:
"This only shows the imperfect nature of man. If man misunderstood the principles of religion, or decided to interpret them as they please to in order to gain power or money, well that is hardly a good reason to blame God"
ayn rand will answer you for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_qQt9IrUc0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpo3OoyUUUc
George D Georgiou wrote
at 1:02pm on December 10th, 2008
@ Photos

"Men of the stature of Albert Einstein had the sense to be aware of a creator."

This false from the get go. Albert Einstein has been mis quoted throughout the ages as a believer and it needs to be stated clearly that he was a pantheist. Pantheism is not a belief in any kind of personal god who listens to prayers etc etc..
Nor is it a belief in a creator who created the universe and then stepped back and let it run its own course (that is Deism). it is instead a poetic way of describing nature. Other eminent scientists like Steven Hawking are also pantheists and i like the very idea of describing the universe and nature in this manner BUT, it allows for people to misquote in this way and give purely objective people (Like Einstein) the image of being a believer.

I do have evidence of this buried away somewhere in piles of research and books, and i will find it when i have the time, but for now this will have to do.

"The more you progress in science, the higher you go, the more likely you are to accept the notion of God."

This is also false as far as i know. There is statistical evidence which shows that the VAST majority of scientists and academics are either Agnostic or atheist (predominantly atheist). The percentage of Atheist rises as does the level of degree. I also have these statistics somewhere and again i will dig them up given the opportunity. It is, from memory, something along the lines of 90% atheists and 10% theists.

Again, this doesn't disprove god, nor do i claim to be able to disprove god, but for the sake of argument this was worth posting.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 1:32pm on December 10th, 2008
YAY i love the way this is gonig ill be back with some pawnage really soon, i will put some effort in the next post so give me a bit of time :) (damn collage / raids)
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 1:57pm on December 10th, 2008
I did not say that Einstein believed in a personal God. I said that he believed in a creator. In fact he believed in an impersonal force, that's what his view of God was. I believe that a man with the IQ of Einstein knew that there was a need to explain "where from" and "why". Man is able to answer only "what" and "when".

A correlation of IQ with theism or atheism, as you say, does not disprove God. It more or less correlates IQ with a degree of arrogance...the concept of Humanism, that man alone can move mountains, so to speak...if he puts his mind to it. Don't get me wrong, I too have a great belief in the powers of man, I just think they are God given.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 3:04pm on December 10th, 2008
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)
and there is loads of other occasions where Einstein expressed his opposition to the idea of a creator.

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.
-- Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955, quoted from James A Haught, "Breaking the Last Taboo" (1996)
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 3:20pm on December 10th, 2008
Some quotes by Einstein:

I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 202)

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source...They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, p.214)

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, p. 214)

Does this sound like a man who did not believe in a creator??
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 5:04pm on December 10th, 2008
combining all his quotes he sounds like an agnostic man to me, yet not a believer.
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 7:51pm on December 10th, 2008
Tsk, tsk. Is that the best you can come up with? I'm very disappointed...
George D Georgiou wrote
at 7:53pm on December 10th, 2008
@Garen

bring it on baby:P
Oh and if by "Pwnage" you mean getting Dikran in on this, please do, he is a source of MUCH stimulating debate and he can only do this post good:)

@Photos

Seems i have to dig up the evidence:) There is a very very fine line between what i am claiming about Einstein being a Pantheist, and you claiming he believed in an impersonal God:) it is exactly the sort of thing i am talking about.

As for the correlation, i didn't come up with it, i merely stated some statistics, make what you like of them.

and on a side note...i wonder how the posts will go when i really DO bring up God. (Rubs his hands together:P)
Kian Sharifi wrote
at 9:09pm on December 10th, 2008
I advise you guys to take a look at this, according to this article, at least, Einstein was indeed a Pantheist.

http://www.eequalsmcsquared.auckland.ac.nz/sites/emc2/tl/philosophy/einstein_god.cfm
Kian Sharifi wrote
at 9:16pm on December 10th, 2008
To add to that, in my own opinion, Einstein's endorsement of Spinoza is the biggest proof of his Pantheistic beliefs, as Spinoza really coined the term Pantheist.
George D Georgiou wrote
at 9:24pm on December 10th, 2008
Kian has found a link which embodies precisely what i am trying to say, without having to go and look up my sources personally. Better him than me:) We both have a test tomorrow and it seems he isn't studying:)

If Pantheism is standing in awe of the magnificent, beautiful, mysterious and ever present nature of the universe we live in, then i am already sailing on that boat. I can still confidently refer to myself as an athiest since the term god in pantheism is as far from any conceivable notion of god that we have or can have. It is the unknown, or the reason behind existence...for me it is unconscious, objective by nature, yet discoverable by intelligent, curious life (that doesn't necessarily mean humanity).
I must be careful here not to be misunderstood...I do NOT believe in any supreme being, supernatural force residing outside the boundaries imposed upon us by the universe, no benevolent consciousness that can listen to our thoughts, or anything that cannot at some point in time, be it now or in millions of years, be understood by us or by whatever is prying into the matter.

Back to Anatomy.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 12:22am on December 11th, 2008
hey guys i cant do my xxl 3 supremely gaintic assignments while being tempted to argue in this kind of debates so get back to what ever you have to study now and let me finish this
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 2:33am on December 11th, 2008
(HI all, this is Dikran from a work related facebook account)

So anyways... I read everything and my eyes are numb from reading. Which is why I wont add anything tangible to the discussion (at 2:30am this morning) other then to say:

@ Geroge: Superb articles. Your articulation is very very good. You make me jealous with your writing and your ability to express! (10/10)

@ M.wael Alkel: Jumping to too many conclusions (4/10)

@ Photos Hajigeorgiou: Although from what I understand, we don't share the same fudemantal belief; I still think you backed-up almost everything you said prefectly. (10/10)

As for Einstein's quotes... from what I gather; he has said many things (which contradict) in the past. No need to baptize the guy either way, and no need to be fixated on one individual's opinion (An individual who has both been wrong and has contradicted himself).
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 8:44am on December 11th, 2008
Hi Dikran and welcome!

Yes, I have to admit that I was a little selective in my Einstein quotes. The fact is he DID say contradictory things at different times, to the extent that I must say I am confused about his true beliefs. Perhaps his beliefs changed during his lifetime, as we have little indication of the quotes' dates.

To wrap up my thoughts, I believe that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God. If God exists, He is not of this "world", so to speak, so it would be impossible to employ scientific principles to materialize Him. I base my choice to believe in God on the basis of the harmony and symmetry of this universe, on the beautiful design of the "machines" that manifest this Earth, but also deeply on prophetic passages from the Bible. Things that have come to pass that were predicted by many of the prophets of the Old and New Testaments. I am not certain whether my belief in a personal God is justified though. I believe in the power of prayer, but then I also recognize the vast powers of the human subconscious mind, as also referred to explicitly by Jesus.

Anyway, whatever your beliefs are I respect them and we can debate for the sake of debating and for the sake of intelligent discussion. I sincerely doubt that we will be able to change each other's minds but dialogue is constructive in cultivating understanding and by extension a peaceful coexistence.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:23pm on December 11th, 2008
Ok I am a bit left behind now, so I will try to catch up a bit, and yeah George as you can see I got the big guns with me, even though we don’t agree on everything, but still, he’s a big gun :P
Right, I would like to first begin with Mr. Wael:
In the previous post, I made a mistake and said molecules were the smallest thing (excuse me), but I actually meant, that scantiest believed the Atom was the smallest thing, hence why it was given the name “atom”, which in Greek means “un-split able” . Not after a few centuries later did they discover that atoms contained subatomic components.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:23pm on December 11th, 2008
I didn’t want to focus specifically on this matter, I just gave it as an example (I am sure there are many other examples were scientists proved themselves wrong, or each other wrong, after taking the hypothesis and making it a fact), my point here was that scientist DO prove themselves wrong. Again don’t get me wrong I am not trying to say science is bad, I am just saying someday, someone might come and prove evolution wrong, and laugh at the people who believed it, just like how most evolutionists laughs at religious people now.
I don’t see how you, or people like you, take evolution as the final answer, science is still young, you know it, I know it, even the scientists know it, I believe you even said it (might have been George).
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:23pm on December 11th, 2008
AGAIN I cannot emphasize myself more, I AM NOT ATTACKING SCIENCE, I simply can’t believe in something that has a chance to be proven wrong (even though it is a small chance), that’s why I am not the most religious person.
What I realized from your posts, is that they are EXTREAM posts, you might be looking at things objectively , but your posting as if the right answer has been in front of you, they still have lots of work in evolution, just like how Mr photis said, were is the beginning?, maybe that’s the missing link that breaks all your evolution, monkey cousins and uncles, dreams and shatters them, and tells you that humans are zapped from other dimensions, and are being genetically developed there.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:23pm on December 11th, 2008
Now to the lovely stella :)
Now stella usually on open post debates like these, I hate reposting the same thing again, since what you said “I just add that there is a God who made these things work this way” was answered in my previous post, but I might have been unclear, and in a rush, so I will make it an acceptation this time just for you ♥
Now the main idea is here “nothing HAS to be created by something, but something’s CAN be created by other things” I will go into some details on this for clarification reasons.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:24pm on December 11th, 2008
When you added this line “I just add that there is a God who made these things work this way” you have stated that--- everything “ HAS “ to be created by god--- what I was trying to say is nothing can be a “ HAS “ without any facts or proof, or a sign, or a signal, OR SOME SORT OF EVIDENCE. you could say the great books have lots of evidence, right the great book has lots of evidence which nobody alive now can see or proof, it just talks about a humble man who walked the face of the earth done his “miracles” and left us (sorry for being harsh, I am not usually this way, just trying to get the point across), now that doesn’t prove to me anything. Nothing, zit, nadda, actually it gives me a few names, mariam , jesus and the 12 disciples, but no proof of god and his existence what so ever. Now since somebody, or something has written down this book, and might have done his/hers research, or found something, or I donno so a burning tree that never had burning marks on it, he claimed the existence of god, which goes back to the second part of the sentence I posted “but something’s CAN be created by other things”, this little line here explains, that there MIGHT be a chance there is a god who did all this good to the world and brought us world hunger, and sicknesses. But there is a chance for that being true it’s not a fact.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:24pm on December 11th, 2008
Now I will give you another sentence which I hope everyone in an open debate should have noted on his computer screen “ you cannot disprove and unproven” I assume you know this, but just for the sake of argument, I will go into slight detail with it by using the infamous flying teapot example.
Man 1: there is a flying teapot orbiting Earths atmosphere.
Man 2: no there isn’t
Man 1: prove me wrong
Man 2: first you prove yourself right,
See where I am going?
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:24pm on December 11th, 2008
Lastly we go down to George aka Kirious Vader
MR. Vader
I didn’t mean to give natural selection a conscious, I know it doesn’t have one, if it did, I think the population of the world would have been reduced to a few selected people, you know the smart people who natural selection favors a lot, you know the ones natural selection would want to survive (me and Einstein :p) , I was trying to point how we (generally non-believers, who want to seek for the truth) got here now was cause of natural selection + religion, which is an ironic mix in my humble opinion.
Now, the reason all of this went to religion, I think is quite obvious, I actually think it was almost impossible to avoid not having a religious argument in it, I’ll explain why.
An informative post like this, with simplifications, is intended for the average reader (who can be bothered to read, since it is about evolution, will split the average reader into two types, readers who know about evolution, and people who know less about evolution.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:25pm on December 11th, 2008
People who know about evolution, are usually people who are open minded, accept new information, and have already read this so they don’t bother to post (I’ll give you and example, ME, I wasn’t going to post anything till a saw stellas post)
People who know less about evolution, are the more closed minded people (doesn’t have to be generally close minded, just to scientific facts that are spat in their faces), who read this get offended and give you their 2 cents about god and he’s good doings.
You have a lot of both types of people, the second type I think is more active on these types of notes, I know your intentions weren’t to make this religious, but I think it was unavoidable.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 5:25pm on December 11th, 2008
Mr. photos,
Nice to meat you, heard lot about you : ) .
That’s all I got for now. :P
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 6:06pm on December 11th, 2008
I'll expand a little bit more.

M.wael Alkel said: "And the conclusion that remains is that religion has divided us, made us kill each others and kept us in the darkness of violence and ignorant for ages to come."

There is a lot of stuff that you say that I like and agree with, but stuff like the quote above simply tells me that some of your theories are only half baked at best.

Religion is not the prime culprit responsible for separating people... no, instead you can put that blame mostly down on geographic distance.

Some other stuff that may separate or even promote friction among humans is resource scarcity.

Oo Garen, you're getting heated! Anyways I'll be back and target George' article later... debate is awesome!
George D Georgiou wrote
at 8:25pm on December 11th, 2008
@Dikran
great to finally have you on-board mate:)Your reputation has preceded you (thanks to me) and i expect what you usually do: Give great perspectives, and push the boundaries of what we should be thinking about.

@Photos
The Einstein quotes: I am still of the opinion that he clearly was a Pantheist because there is nothing in his quotes that can be directly read as proof that he believed in God, and plenty to strengthen the possibility that he in fact didn't. Anyway, we will have ample time to chat about that great man amongst men in later topics, whether he did or didn't believe in God.

I do agree that it is impossible to prove or disprove God, and that's why i always say i allow for a small possibility that he/she/it does exist, albeit a small one (along the lines of 0.0000000000000000000000009%, you catch my drift).

I have read the bible ample times ( i also have a Quran on the shelf right next to it..OH MY GOD -- either of the two--STRIKE ME DOWN), and there is nothing apparent to me, or between the lines, that any successful predictons were made. It is like Astrology, which i will chew up and toss out later, making statements and predictions so massively general that something to fit the prediction will inevitably manifest itself at some future point.

Prayer? Placebo effect in full swing....but hey, if it works in a beneficial way, use it.

Subconscious: This is where I agree with Photos with no restrictions or hesitations at all. It is the unexplored frontier behind the human psyche and holds many many answers to our questions. I will also touch upon that at a later time.

@Garen

As far as scientists proving themselves wrong goes, this is one of the beauties of the whole scientific process. As a scientist, your beliefs are on the shooting range, and if new evidence comes to light that proves a hypothesis wrong, then you must change your view. That doesn't mean re-writing all you thought was true, simply an accommodation of the new data.
Garo Meserlian wrote
at 8:39pm on December 11th, 2008
"As far as scientists proving themselves wrong goes, this is one of the beauties of the whole scientific process. As a scientist, your beliefs are on the shooting range, and if new evidence comes to light that proves a hypothesis wrong, then you must change your view. That doesn't mean re-writing all you thought was true, simply an accommodation of the new data."

just what i said kirie vader. but its just the way wael puts it into prospective is i have to become a evolutionist because its proved to be write (now).
George D Georgiou wrote
at 8:39pm on December 11th, 2008
@Garen continued

It is what drives science to progress and fuels the fire of curiosity and discovery. On the other hand, there seems to be no room whatsoever for anything that even slightly disputes the 'facts' for a devout religious person. Not a healthy mindset.

As far as evolution goes, we currently have two theories of how life has developed (NOT how life appeared): Natural selection and God. Of the two, one has mountains and mountains of evidence, so much in fact that it shouldn't even be labelled as a theory anymore and the other, well, is a beautiful fantasy mythology. You choose which i am referring to in either case. If anything ever appears to dispute evolution, it will likely make a slight re-arrangement of the facts, not a whole re-hash. That is good science.

@General

whether Jesus existed or not (personally i don't believe he did, at least not in the form the Bible would have us believe), he did say, or is purported to have said, some very wise things which in application are very useful to all of us, and the ideas (whoever devised them) were way ahead of their time. Some, not all (Love my enemies? Oh please) offer us a lot as ways to approach peace and respect for all. Kudos to him if he did say what is claimed he said.

At the very least, we are all here together on this rock, we all affect each other's live both in direct and indirect ways and it is our duty to encourage thought which not only helps us discover ourselves, but helps us understand that the person sitting next to you or opposite you on the receiving end of your comments is a person just like you and thus deserves, with all other things equal, your utmost attention and respect.

Keep it up guys, i didn't expect this response from anyone and it is greatly encouraging. You are all fueling future material i will expand:)
George D Georgiou wrote
at 8:40pm on December 11th, 2008
Gah, he managed to sneak a post in between two of mine....INFIDEL!:P
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 10:35pm on December 11th, 2008
A bit under the influence of scotch and 7-Up...but here goes nothing

The classic example of scientific principles undergoing change, Newton's theory of gravitation and Einstein's General Relativity theory. I believe that the next scientific principle to undergo a similar change is not evolution, but quantum mechanics. Deep down I believe that QM is a limiting case of a much broader law, just like Newton's gravitational theory is a limiting (low velocity) case of Einstein's.

Regarding evolution, there are many prominent scientists that do not believe it, at least not in its entirety. I personally believe it, except for species crossing. The evidence is all around us. Microbes provide the best systems for the theory of natural selection, random mutations and survival of the fittest. Let's not try to deny issues that we can clearly see in front of our eyes.

How does God fit into this all? I see Him as the Grand Architect of the universe (relax I am not a Freemason). The design of the universe has the signature of an infinte intelligence. So does the design of a human being. With all our technology, we still do not understand how the human body works. Don't believe me? Then what are people doing dying of cancer? What are people doing getting Alzheimer's and Parkinson's while we cannot a damn thing about it?

As for the Quran, well, let me put it this way: if in a 1000 years someone discovers a Harry Potter novel, would this prove the existence of witches? Is it so hard to envision that fiction may have been written thousands of years ago? The ancient Greeks wrote a lot of fiction about their 12 gods of mount Olympus, why not the ancient Middle Easterners? You have to also picture that at that time the newly created Christian religion was under attack from a a lot of sources. The Romans, the Jews, etc.

If the above don't make sense, blame Johnny Walker, don't blame me...
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 10:45pm on December 11th, 2008
Regarding prophecy George, I would recommend you read Daniel again, more carefully, and investigate some website that interpret him.

I have heard before the argument that "making statements and predictions so massively general that something to fit the prediction will inevitably manifest itself at some future point." This is a general statement in itself that avoids tackling the issue of prophecy in detail.

The New Testament prediction of the reformation of Isreal as a nation (in 1948) is nonsense?

The photographing of our generation by Daniel about "knowledge spreading abound" and people travelling about (I cannot in my state now recall the exact words)?

Nothing to do with the Bible but Nostradamus practically naming Hitler as the captain of the crooked cross (swastika)?

Let's not deny man's prophetic gift. Whether it is God give, demon given, or a result of his subconscious mind, it is another matter altogether.
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 1:33am yesterday
Mr. Photos,

I'm just curious, how certain are you that God exists? Also, how justified do you think atheists are in their views about the lack of God? This sincere question - in my opinion - could help establish a constructive dialogue between the two polar opposites views in this debate.

Conversely, I would also like to know on what the atheists (or even the agnostics) think about on how justified the people who believe in God(s) are. For example, would you call a religious person stupid for not seeing the scientific “facts”? Or would you call all religious people naive? Do all religious people lack logic? Assuming that it's undeniably OBVIOUS that God doesn't exist; where in your opinion do religious people “stumble” on that undeniable fact? Or is it not so obvious and you can see exactly where they get it wrong?
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 2:26am yesterday
@ George: Again, your article was brilliant and the majority of stuff is alien to me (Maybe I do need to read the selfish gene :P). So a big thank you for the effort. I have to ask though, did any part of either article carry any of your own personal theories or is all the technical information based of off existing scientific literature?

But anyhow, there is just one main thing I want to touch on from your article above and that is about the theory of how life started. From what I gather, the possibility that the first organism came about from a superficial attraction of certain particles or amino acids to each other - although plausible - can otherwise be characterized as a spontaneous chemical reaction.

I'm obviously no expert on the matter but it seems to me that replicating particles is what the universe is made out of. So I think replication might only be a piece of the puzzle. I am totally fascinated and cant wait to finally find out the answer to how life started but I sadly have the suspicion that we may not even be close and who knows, as unlikely as it sounds, perhaps Quantum Mechanics holds a few more pieces of the puzzle.

One last thing that I'm wondering about is: how or at what point did this hypothetical precursor-to-life of a chemical switch to a dependence on the environment (oxygen, heat, water) for survival. Just food for thought.
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 8:12am yesterday
Hi Dikran

I am almost 100% certain that God exists. Obviously this belief cannot be based on any direct physical evidence, and of course the opposite is true, that is, atheists cannot provide any direct physical evidence that God does not exist.

The problem in the thinking of atheists, in my view, is that they select not to believe because of the lack of any direct physical evidence. Why do I consider this a problem? Because ALL major religions give God non-physical and non-temporal characteristics, e.g. the Eternal One (i.e. independent of time). As such, it is not possible to "measure" God. In my opinion God is both independent of time and space. Time and space are the constraints on anything made of mass and possessing energy.

Are atheists justified in their lack of belief in God? It depends on how you see the issue. If you consider that the more science closes the gaps, the more the concept of God _seems_ unnecessary, then they are perfectly justified to believe that there is not God, should they so choose. I, as a theist, choose to believe both in science and in God. In other words, I don't think that these two things need to be mutually exclusive.

On the other hand, I have a Bible that has even predicted that during our days, being Christian would be uncool, and Christians would be objects of ridicule. In fact there will come a time (in the not too distant future) where being a Christian will make you the object of tyranny and persecution. You see, atheists are so convinced of their ideas that they are not willing to accept the notion of anyone believing in a God.

I'll stop here for now. Due to family commitments I'll be busy over the next couple of days but I will be checking in as much as possible.
George D Georgiou wrote
at 1:08pm yesterday
New day, fresh mind, might as well do this now before i hit the books, so:

@Photos
You are far more versed than myself concerning Quantum Mechanics although i do know 'some' (Qualitative) aspects of it.i would also go as far as saying that many scientists share your opinion in that a unification of QM with Gravity will push our boundaries of knowledge even further.

Concerning our knowledge of the human body: Physics has had hundreds of years to mature, Chemistry has had a slightly shorter time but still a very long time when compared to Biology. Therefore i find it very realistic to admit that we don't know much about the Human body (or any complex animal for that matter), a creature that is the result of roughly 4,000,000,000 years of evolution via natural selection. You yourself know very well that Biology, and it's branches, could potentially be the next 'scientific enlightenment' era.

As for the fiction, agreed. One thing i do pick up from you though is that you seem to be focused on defending Christianity. When i speak atheism, it doesn't single out Christianity. It just as much, if not more so, refers to Islam (Makes me shiver), Judaism, and all of the religions existent today. Let's skip the whacky gooks who follow scientology.

Prophecy and Israel: Israel is the main theme of the Bible practically from the beginning all the way through. If you were trying to create a doctrine for your people, one which would give them morals and values and a generally positive outlook on their place in life, would you predict that in the future your nation would be destroyed or shattered into oblivion? I think not. You would also give a very encouraging tone, one of a form of 'victory' at the very end. No prediction there (at least for me).

Knowledge spreading abound? I believe you can do much better than that.

Nostradamus is a whole different ball game. I promise i will look into him and give you my feedback.
George D Georgiou wrote
at 1:34pm yesterday
@Dikran

The article thus far, carried information that has been touched upon by far more knowledgeable people than myself. So, apart from the analogy of 'Armored-chains' that i chose to use to illustrate the theory, it was not of my conception. Then again i wouldn't have chosen it if it didn't appeal to me in some way.

"the possibility that the first organism came about from a superficial attraction of certain particles or amino acids to each other - although plausible - can otherwise be characterized as a spontaneous chemical reaction."

True. But as far as replications go, the universe isn't made out of replicating particles. All matter was, apparently, created in the Big bang. That's it. There is, as far as i know, no replicating occurring anywhere outside of life. a note of clarification here: Replication doesn't imply the creation of new matter out of nothing. it is the process by which a particle, or molecule, 'copies' itself using existing building blocks of matter.
According to our definition of life, no replicating occurs anywhere whatsoever outside of biological organisms, not even viruses, as they lack the cellular machinery to replicate themselves. They instead commandeer the machinery of other organisms. A bit of a grey area there.

I do agree that QM may hold answers, since replication seemingly occurs on an atomic level. What i mean is the interactions are fundamental (back to the four forces). What you may not know, is that through research, scientists have postulated that it is impossible for new life to occur given the current condition of the atmosphere. Oxygen, our precious life-giving (and rusting) element is (No surprise, given the name) a strong oxidiser. With the abundance of it in the atmosphere today, the reactions hypothesised to have created life so many billions of years ago simply wouldn't happen. The chemicals would be 'oxidised' and the reactions stopped.
George D Georgiou wrote
at 1:47pm yesterday
Cont....

Oxygen didn't appear in the amounts present today, until long after life itself had appeared (Plant life).

"how or at what point did this hypothetical precursor-to-life of a chemical switch to a dependence on the environment (oxygen, heat, water) for survival. Just food for thought."

Natural selection: Assuming life had already appeared in the absence of oxygen (there WAS oxygen around, just very little of it), this plant life which took other chemicals, say CO2, out of the atmosphere, and as a byproduct churned out O2, would enrich the atmosphere with oxygen. Life having already established a foothold need not fear the oxidative properties of Oxygen as DNA would already be protected by a cell membrane by this time.
Given this new abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere, natural selection would then favor any animal life that utilised the O2 effectively, and to go even further, would favor any life that wasn't destroyed or poisoned by the O2. Heat is necessary as it is essentially energy (Photos is the expert on thermodynamics here) and water serves as a great medium in which reactions may be carried out (Its polarity, its high specific heat capacity, its properties as a buffer!....ask me about these things if you aren't familiar with them).

@Photos again

I believe you are treating your argument as a defense against a singular attack on Christianity, where i have previously stated that this is not the case. All religions, for me, are equally superstitious. Whether they have offered some benefit to mankind is not the issue here, maybe they have, i will explore that when i get to the concept of 'Memes' (which i am sure you will ALL find fascinating). If Christians are uncool, then it isn't only an Atheist that may have this point of view, but also an Islamist and a Judaist. Rearrange the labels here and they apply to whichever religion you choose. it works the same in any case.
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 1:48pm yesterday
No replication whatsoever?

Well this may not have been what you were expecting (and it may even be an invalid point so correct me if I'm wrong) but don't stars replicate identical helium particles from Hydrogen?
George D Georgiou wrote
at 1:53pm yesterday
"You see, atheists are so convinced of their ideas that they are not willing to accept the notion of anyone believing in a God."

If anyone could come up with a strong powerful piece of evidence, even theoretical, to prove that God may indeed exist, then i am all for it. until then, if ever, I humbly say that I have found absolutely nothing to make me believe in a God of any kind that cannot be explained away by a far more feasible explanation.

Are religious people justified in their beliefs? They were, once upon a time. we need to abandon our 'imaginary, childhood invisible friends' and grow up together, unified as a species. Reason people, reason.

On a side note..Does anyone here have any information about blogs? I am considering starting a blog for this whole issue but i am worried about spammers and people taking things too personally. Would i have the ability to 'kick' anyone who gets out of hand? All of us here so far are very civilised people and respect the other. Many others out there do not do this, and things could get out of hand. So the comfort of knowing that i could kick someone from a blog would be encouraging. Any info?
George D Georgiou wrote
at 1:54pm yesterday
Dikran, no, They 'synthesize' but don't replicate. Replicate implies an identical copy. Helium is not Hydrogen....catch my drift?

it is a process of Fusion, the coming together of two smaller parts to make a larger. Replication is an 'EXACT' copy, considering no mutation has taken place.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 2:46pm yesterday
Sorry I was abit busy with uni and stuff
@photos
Dr.p why are so convinced that you can’t change my mind or convince me with some thing other than what I believe? Is a very open minded person and would gladly take a step back when argued with logic reason and rationality.
So it’s not completely a debate for the sake of debate.
and as gorge and me indicated earlier its not a single attack on Christianity, all religions are based on the flawed circular logic of a creator/s who are/is beyond mans power to conceive while you base your believes on nothing but faith which by definition the believe without any evidence and you also extended it to the point where you actually discard any evidence that might conflict with your believe.
how is scientifically possible for a dead man to rise from the dead our bodies are made of cells which breaks down when blood cant deliver oxygen and nutrition to it and your brain needs nothing but several minutes to be completely whipped out of your very essence your self awareness your memories and your thoughts but yet Christians discard all that medical evidence to believe in some 2000 years old superstition.
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 2:47pm yesterday
did you dare to think of a more rational scenario of a woman getting pregnant while living in a conservative Jewish society 2000 years ago other than the scenario offered by Christianity.
yet people are entitled of their own believes and that is non of my concern but it is my concern when tax money is spent on religious institutions and when these believes are forced upon our most valued kids and when wars are commenced in the name of these believes and the worst is when science which is nothing but the hunt for the truth is restricted and attacked by these ignorant believes.
There isn’t one religion on planet earth that didn’t have its victims and sacrificial offerings.
And for once a group of people stand up to say no take your religions out of our schools governments and pockets but then gets criticized aggressively by almost every one.
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 3:01pm yesterday
"Helium is not Hydrogen....catch my drift?"

Of coarse it's not. But the process itself is self prepetuating and the result to which are identical (underlined) sister particles (i.e. Helium)

The reason why I'm talking about the grey area is not because I think that the theories that you outlined in your article (developed by scientists and biologists) are wrong... no, It's actually because what you said is by iteslf a subject resting in a grey area. Where as the overall consensus on this subject was wrongly heading towards the notion that the subject is black and white science, which it is not.

I think the assumption that life is defined by replication is a reasonable building block for now. With so many unknown variables to juggle around in order to begin the quest to find answers on the origin of life; it only makes sense that such a narrow and simplistic definition was imposed.

Yes boss?
M.wael Alkel wrote
at 3:04pm yesterday
@garen as I explained before in order for science to avoid making mistakes it developed a method that categories knowledge into facts theories and hypothesis, evolution how ever just like the nuclear THEORY is a fact and a theory since for a theory to become a fact it has to be observable and testable.
Molecular evolution happens every day in and out side labs.
as for scientists proving themselves wrong, well that an advantage of the great scientific method that it actually improve knowledge as time passes while the religious method is too arrogant to change and adapt to discovered facts but instead it denies them if they conflict with it in any way.
Photos Hajigeorgiou wrote
at 3:30pm yesterday
Regarding the attack on Christianity, I used it only as an indicator of the validity of Biblical prophecy....
George D Georgiou wrote
at 4:52pm yesterday
@Wael

I think you are attacking (Debate style of course) Photos unfoundedly (does that word exist?:P)

His belief is NOT of the kind (at least i think) that there is a benelovent, omnipotent, omnipresent personification who can hear everything and will actively influence reality. It transcends reality and is something that we are not, in our current state of affairs, capable of realising. Photos will undoubtedly correct me if i am wrong.

With this said, i am in full agreement that there is a possibility, outside of what we understand that a force exists which we simply do not yet understand. If, as is said, this is outside of time and space, and since we are bound by time and space, then it is irrelevant either way. As a scientist (do i jump the gun calling myself a scientist?) therefore i believe we should deal with what we can deal with now. Thus, in this universe, according to my personal stand, i arrive at the conclusion that there is no God.

@Dikran

"But the process itself is self prepetuating and the result to which are identical (underlined) sister particles (i.e. Helium)"

The process is an inevitable result of the thermodynamics of particles. Hydrogen isotopes fuse into helium because of the heat and energy present in stars.

Helium itself does not give rise to new identical Helium atoms, nor does any other element, nor does any other sub-atomic fundamental building block. Nada, zip, zero. The kinetic energy of the atoms, due to the heat, send the Hydrogen atoms smashing into other hydrogen atoms resulting in larger helium atoms. Hydrogen atoms do not have a 'transcriber' (RNA lets say) which will form another hydrogen atom from the original. DNA on the other hand, results in the phenotypic expression of its carrier (Cell, organ, organism). What this means, very broadly, is that the specific sequence of Nucleotides on a DNA chain (The genotype) have an observable or measurable change in the carrier's phenotype (The observable part).
George D Georgiou wrote
at 5:07pm yesterday
Cont...

Gene for blue eyes = Genotype

Blue eyes= Phenotype

Returning from my tangent, DNA replication is self perpetuating and will occur regardless of its environment. The DNA offering beneficial phenotypes will increase its chance of replication and being passed on. DNA offering detrimental phenotypes will eventually be weeded out by natural selection (there are exceptions, 'outlaw DNA' which detriments the carrier but is propagated nevertheless, but that is for another time). In a nutshell, nucleosynthesis, the process that results in new heavier elements, not only doesn't result in identical elements, but is not self perpetuating. it depends on certain very specific conditions which are found in the hearts of stars.

So the two different processes are not in the least sense similar.

Abiogenesis is a grey area. Replication and propagation is not.

Yes boss? :)
Dimitris Mosk wrote
at 5:19pm yesterday
George, if you're eloquently trying to say that our 2 different examples are fundemantly not the same process then you're right. But they share many similarities including the need for enviornmental forces to make them happen.

"Hydrogen atoms do not have a 'transcriber' (RNA lets say) which will form another hydrogen atom from the original."

Isn't the same also true for carbon atoms?